Author’s Note: I am so proud and so pleased with this interview that I had the privilege of conducting with one of the storied international firefighters of our time. As you read Paul’s biography and his replies to my questions, there is no doubt to the volume of knowledge that my friend possesses.

So, pull up a chair, grab your favorite beverage and enjoy this unique learning experience. And when you are finished, drop Paul a line. He would love to hear from you. Thank you.

Biography

The biography of Paul Grimwood appears in his latest book ‘Euro FireFighter©’, published in 2008.

Paul Grimwood is a thirty-five year veteran of the British Fire Service, having served most of his time as firefighter in London Fire Brigade’s busy West End district. In the mid 1970s he also served an eighteen-month detachment into New York’s South Bronx 7^th Division, during the busiest period in FDNY’s history. From 1976-77 he further served as a volunteer firefighter/EMT on Long Island’s south shore.

For more than thirty years Paul has been undertaking global research into structural firefighting strategy and tactics and has contributed in excess of 200 technical articles since 1979, in an effort to advance firefighter safety. During this time he has served and responded out of more 100 fire stations around the world, working alongside some of the finest firefighters you could ever wish to meet. He has also presented papers on fire service operations at international conferences in several countries since 1993.

His other books include ‘Fog Attack©’ (1992) and ‘3D Firefighting©’ (2005), the latter of which he joint authored with firefighting colleagues Battalion Chief Ed Hartin (USA), and Station Officers John McDonough and Shan Raffel (Australia).

From 1984 he served eleven years as a London Fire Brigade fire investigator and was part of the six-person team that investigated the tragic King’s Cross fire in 1987 where thirty-one lives were lost, including a colleague ( Station Officer Colin Townsley) from London’s Soho fire station.

He is a trained USAR instructor (EMT) and was deployed on operational disaster relief assignments into Iraq (1991) and Bosnia (1993). He is also a CFBT and tactical ventilation specialist (1984-2008) and a Tactical Deployment (command and control) and High-rise Firefighting instructor.

Paul is the founder and principal of Firetactics.com®, a website which has provided in excess of 14,000 pages of structural firefighting SOGs in six languages FREE to over 2.5 million visitors from more than seventy countries since July 1999 (source: Webstat.com).

He is an advisor to several UK Government Task Groups including ODPM Compartment Fire Behavior Training; BDAG High-rise Firefighting; CLG High-rise Firefighting, as well as an editorial reviewer for the Fire Safety Journal (the official journal of the International Association of Fire Safety Science). He is also an established ‘expert’ technical witness and advisor in fire service operations, having worked on several high-profile cases in the USA and Europe.

In 2008 Paul was awarded the Institute of Fire Engineers’ (IFE) highest academic status (FIFireE) in recognition of his thirty-year professional commitment to firefighter safety.

Update: Paul is now retired from Ops but working as a Fire Safety Engineer and High-rise Training Instructor for Kent Fire & Rescue in the UK, an active fire department of 66 fire stations that adjoins London Fire Brigade to the SE.

The Interview

CR: Paul; first of all, thank you very much for taking the time for this interview. You know; we still haven’t had that beer together yet?

PG: Art we have been friends for so many years and I can’t believe we haven’t had the opportunity to share that cold one together! Let it be soon!

CR: We all know when you started your career, but at what age did you start looking at a career in the fire service? What were your early influences?

PG: I wanted to be a firefighter from the age of fifteen. I hung around firehouses and made a nuisance of myself. I eventually got hired the day after my 18^th birthday and became London’s youngest ever professional firefighter in 1971.

CR: Please name and describe some of your mentors.

PG: I saw good things in many role models through the 1970s. There were several fire chiefs in London of that era who I just have to mention, Roy Baldwin; Tony Wilmott and Tom Stanton who were legends in their time. In the USA I read everything FDNY’s Bill Clarke ever wrote as well as Frank Brannigan and who’s that guy … oh yeah Mittendorf in LA. There was also great advice coming from Leo Stapleton in Boston. I had the opportunity of spending an hour with Commissioner Stapleton in his office just before he went on the golf course, what a great guy.

CR: When you started in the fire service, what were the goals that you set for yourself?

PG: I wanted to be the best at what I did and I wanted to serve with the busiest. When I was initially assigned to London’s busiest of their 114 fire stations – Paddington – in London’s west end district I just couldn’t believe my luck. We picked up many serious working fires mainly in hotels during the early part of the 1970s. There were also streets full of vacants that became my learning ground as they burned on a nightly basis.

CR: Was it ever your plan that “student” would become “teacher”?

PG: No that was never my plan Art. I never even considered it, as I couldn’t imagine leaving station life. But then one day a 35 years veteran firefighter, Bill Willis, retired. His experience was going to be greatly missed when he got off the engine for the last time, I just didn’t know how we would cope. The things he told us about getting in and staying there weren’t written down anywhere. I though ‘ I just have to get this stuff down on paper for future generations of firefighters’. That became my first book – Fog Attack.

CR: You have worked for two of the most storied fire departments in the world.  Was FDNY just a “ride-along” that lasted almost two years or what? Why would you leave London, England for FDNY?

PG: You know I was very lucky. I met a guy in London in 1974 and we became great friends. Bill Bohner was a giant of a man and as the Deputy Chief in charge of the FDNY’s (then) 7^th Division (South Bronx) he arranged a long-term detachment into New York City from London for me. I had to return to UK at the end of it but it had been an amazing experience to work with the bravest during the busiest period in their history. Yes I guess it was a ‘ride along’ because I was not qualified to wear a mask in the city but we still got in some pretty good scrapes! After all, the masks were nearly always left on the engine!

CR: Would you discuss the cultural differences (USA/Great Britain) not only in general terms, but also in terms of the fire service? Are the political issues that affect the fire service the same, similar or different?

PG: Cultural differences? Well in the UK we are sadly losing the tradition that stays with the job in the US, for example where there is often a strong family link in the fire service, sometimes through several generations of firefighters. I think it’s important that this tradition remains strong; I also think that US firefighters are way ahead on the moustache! This was a ‘must have’ here in the 1930s and some of the old time pictures hanging the walls of some fire stations in the UK show some real hairy droopers! We’ve lost that cultural identity! The political issues are exactly the same – cuts in public services are now an annual event and I just don’t know how much smaller our fire service can get! You can do a lot with a ‘little’ but the day comes when ‘little’ does a whole lot more to you!

 CR: Compartment Fire Behavior Training (CFBT) has come to define you. Can you describe how it evolved in theory and then into practice?

PG: It was the late 1970s and I had not long returned from the FDNY detachment, I was busy putting all the things I had learned in the US into published articles. ‘Smoke detectors in homes’; ‘Arson Task Forces’; ‘Medically trained First Responders on Engines’ and ‘Structural Venting tactics’ etc. Then I met some Swedish firefighters who told me about some stuff going on in Stockholm. It wasn’t until 1984 that I came to fully appreciate the strategy the Swedes termed ‘offensive firefighting’ where they were directing short sharp bursts of water-fog into the fire gases to get some ‘steam free’ cooling! I was fortunate enough to get on the nozzle at our next fire one night and guess what …. It was a stair-shaft fire …. Four floors alight and then more! We took the entire fire with a 40GPM flow-rate off of a booster line! Now let me tell you, the stair-shaft fire is the ideal scenario for such tactics because any super-hot water vapor just heads on upwards on the thermal draft and this takes out a whole lot more fire as it rises. I was sold on the Swedish tactics. We used this approach on ‘real’ fires many times over the next few years with some wins and a few losses. It was critical to realize the limitations of this method because if there was one thing the FDNY had taught me, it was to flow big water when it was really needed, or the fire was going to come back and get you. CFBT was a derivative of nozzle bursting tactics. You have the Swede Survival cans in the US but we developed the originals with the Swedes and believe me, it’s a very scientific training experience if these training tools are used correctly. You can learn a lot about fire behavior in these facilities (there is a range of simulators based on varied design principles) but you can also become over confident about ‘real’ fires – these are not ‘real’ fires but simply one-third scale fires that burn solely in the gas-phase. Lots of flaming combustion but no real fire base to hit. You need a good instructor to get the best out of these systems and in the US, Chief Ed Hartin is the best! (www.cfbt-us.com).

CR: Tell us how you developed and nurtured this “amalgamation” of the Swedish tactics of bursting water with anti-ventilation tactics versus your higher nozzle flow rates combined with tactical ventilation.

PG: Until the 1990s, venting structures was pretty alien to us! We would keep the fire area closed down inside our brick construction and go find it. As we developed our venting strategy we found we would get a better result by nozzle bursting the interior gases prior to creating openings. Now don’t think for one minute we were boiling trapped occupants or pushing fire around! This strategy demands precision that can only be learned on the live fire. The nozzle applications and fog patterns are carefully applied so as to remain in control of the thermal layering. As I said, sometimes the conditions are just too over-powering for this approach! I remember one fire we had on a Christmas day where black boiling smoke was emerging from all openings at ground level of a store with apartments above. We used two hose-lines from the street entrance doorways, nozzle bursting with alternate three-second hits into the smoke. It worked for us! We were patient and within four to five minutes we vented the windows and there was no backdraft. The fire was out pretty quick on this occasion.

CR: Your tactics weren’t embraced right away, were they? In fact; it took high profile firefighter deaths before you saw the change.

PG: It was tragic as it took three firefighter deaths in two days in February 1996 before the realization dawned that our firefighters knew very little about fire behavior and the hazards associated with ‘rapid fire’ phenomena. It was decided nationally, despite my twelve years of campaigning prior to these two tragedies, that the time had come to develop CFBT (live fire behavior training) for the UK’s 36,000 firefighters.

CR: Even then, CFBT wasn’t translating well to the fire-ground. What were the obstacles?

PG: There was no standard approach; the training objectives were inappropriate; and the training impact was totally missed! An opportunity went astray for several years as we failed to define the limitations of this approach. The concept of CFBT is to teach firefighters how a fire develops from an incipient fire to flashover. It is not a joy ride! It is not a means of teaching how every fire should be fought. It is very easy to become macho and over confident about the learning experience in these things (cans). You have to have a scientific head on to appreciate the learning objectives. You have to train with precision, controlling fire loading and venting parameters in order to give each student the same learning experience. It is not a real fire experience but believe me, it is as close as you need to get outside of the real thing.

CR: I’m sure that you have seen and probably discussed the “great debate”-fog vs. straight stream. What are you thoughts on that?

PG: Never has there been a more lively debate! For me there is no preference. I can extinguish a lot of fire using differing techniques with either a smoothbore or a fog nozzle. What I will say is that high water content in the stream is absolutely critical when the fire has spread beyond the compartment or room of origin!

CR: Paul; I can’t continue without offering you my platitudes for your book Euro FireFighter©. What was appealing to me was how you choreographed your steps towards incident CONTROL. Granted, the book almost overflows with an abundance of great information, but it all comes together as a perfect blueprint for fire officers in the end. How did you manage such a clear focus of what would become this book?

PG: Well thanks for those comments and that view Art. I always intended this book to be an instructor manual. I wanted the reader to take each and every bullet point and prompt debate from students. I found this a great way to develop learning and simply by taking a power-point and going through the bullet points as statements, we can all follow the debate with our own experiences. The incident command modules are logical processes based on the ‘error chains’ so often thrown up where tragedies occur.

CR: NIOSH. You used several reports in Euro FireFighter©. When you review them, are you looking for lessons learned and the critical information that might be a teachable moment down the road?

Does it concern you that we seem to repeat our mistakes in some cases? Do you think that it’s a fallacy that NIOSH uses templates, because their reports’ recommendations are very similar? I believe that they are similar because the incidents’ end results are very similar, as in repeating our mistakes. What say you?

PG: Any time we review reports of past fires we only get a small portion of what really happened. I know from several personal experiences that if you weren’t on the job yourself then any Monday morning quarterbacking is likely to be worthless. Or is it? The fact is that we are not there to criticize the actions of others but more so to immerse ourselves in the ‘error chain’, or any part of it even if we only get one or two links right, then we are right on the money! Wherever there is a fire where things went wrong it is usually the case that a chain of events unfolded, perhaps during the first five minutes following arrival on scene that set up irreversible circumstances leading to tragedy. In fact, we need to look for the point of ‘no return’ in each error chain and learn for ourselves that there IS in fact a point where we may reverse the situation and alter the outcome. Things happen fast and you may or may not be aware the chain is forming right there in front of you until it is too late. Its so important that fire commanders take a step back, take a breath and take it in. Pay close attention to what is occurring in front of you and don’t hesitate to take instant action that might save lives, even if it means pulling out.

Yes we are all guilty of repeating our mistakes. The thing is we get away with them for so long and they don’t take a bite out of us. It’s when we see several of these errors come together in a few short minutes. In each tragedy you will usually note 4-7 links in the chain that evolved early in the fire. I’ll tell you, the biggest omission from the NIOSH LODD reports is any information concerning fire behavior. We have spoke with them about this before but honestly, I just don’t think they understand fire behavior from a practical perspective and they miss obvious indicators and clear warning signs that might serve as good teaching points. Having said that, the NIOSH database of past reports serves as a critical learning tool. There are always things there to discuss, debate and learn from.

CR: At FDIC 2008, Lt. Ray McCormack delivered “the speech” heard around the world. You and I came out on our blogs with comments on his remarks. What did you get out of it?

PG: You know something? I really did get a feel for Ray’s message. I have to saagain that the way he came over was always going to draw responses in opposition from those of us who see the safety of firefighters as a priority. But he does have a point in some situations and I am seeing it more and more every day. In some areas we are going too far down ‘safety alley’. In my area we are given a directive to lay out three charged hose-lines on the upper floors of a high-rise before our firefighters can access the fire-involved area. Now for one thing that virtually writes off any chances of survival of remaining occupants. It also allows the fire to develop and grow bigger. No Ray, you had a good point and made it well in that your words reached out to millions! But you just have to take a step back and see the damage that might occur. You are a unique role model and some young firefighters will take your words as gospel. In the end, whichever side of the equation we originate from, we just need to meet in the middle and that’s all about getting the right balance between ‘risk versus gain’.

CR: You have a compatriot in the United States. Please tell us about Ed Hartin, since he had such nice things to say about you!

PG: Chief Ed Hartin is certainly one of the most outstanding firefighters I have ever met. His constant efforts to improve the education of firefighters and his unique ability to impart a message are typical of Ed’s mission in life. He continues to help firefighters in all parts of the world and I consider myself very fortunate to have met and worked with him because he has made me better at the things I try to do in life. Ed – thanks brother.

CR: Your website www.firetactics.com is extremely popular worldwide. Has it exceeded your expectations? How has technology driven and/or expanded your mission?

PG: You just have to love the worldwide web and yet we now take it for granted. In 1989 when I wrote my first book about international fire-fighting tactics (Fog Attack) I had to type every word without cut and paste. I did tear up a lot of paper! I also had to write to firefighters in several countries and you know, it took two to three weeks to get replies, just for me to write back to them again for more information! It was never ending.

When I managed to get Firetactics.com online I was blessed with a most generous offer from Task Force Tips to host it for me for free and they have done this ever since it first went online in July 1999. Its been a wonderful experience for me and before Firefighter Nation, Firehouse.com or Fire Engineering, ‘Firetactics’ was actually the most searched firefighting website on the web. It brought together firefighters from over 70 nations and I made many great friends through this route. The message was always about safety and firefighting innovations. I want to thank every single one of you who clicked on Firetactics.com in those early years because it told me that the world was full of firefighters that were looking for the very same answers as I was. I hope you found them.

CR: Can you talk about your charities?

PG: There have been many over the years. Lets just hope that some burn victims in the UK, USA and Australia have benefited somewhat from the proceeds. RAFT in the UK is my big one and thanks to the excellent first year sales of EuroFirefighter, the NYC Burns Foundation is about to get a nice check.

CR: Do you get any downtime? Any “Me” time, Paul?

PG: Sure! I love my family and we spend some great times together. But my weeks are getting more full with work as I get older!

CR: Please know that, in the world community known as the brotherhood/sisterhood, you are truly one of the brightest beacons that floods our senses with critical safety and survival techniques that will save our lives. What is next for the enterprise known as Paul Grimwood?

PG: Chief Art – it is you who shines as a beacon. If you only knew how your steadying influence and great words have spread out into the global firefighting brotherhood. You always know how to break things down to simple logic and speak to people in a firm but civil manner in a way that people really listen. I always say that when the going gets really rough Art will be there to take control. I would have loved to have served with you brother.

CR: When are we having that beer together?

PG: When those Yankees pick up the next World Series brother! Oh I’m sorry you’re a football fan!

CR: As is my custom, I always give my guest the last word along with my deep gratitude for their thoughts. Thank you so very much, Paul and you have the floor.

PG: This interview is a true honor for me so thanks Art. I want to thank everyone who has taken any interest in my work and who has taken the time to email me. It is truly gratifying to hear from firefighters how they think something I once wrote might have made their approach safer in a fire. Your personal friendships and lifelong dedication within the profession constantly inspires me to remain working well into my fourth decade. You are all very special people and it has been my great fortune to know you all.

I received an award when working in Malaysia from their Fire Commissioner. It is a lovely golden crested plaque with a red seal of authority. The words on the plaque are so true; it went like this;

‘We must learn to trust our men (and women) who fire fight in the front, they are closest to the dangers and the hazards, therefore that is where real wisdom is’.

The article as submitted is published under The Adventures of Jake and Vinnie© umbrella and is the intellectual property of Art Goodrich a.k.a. ChiefReason. It is protected by federal copyright laws and cannot be re-printed in any form without expressed permission from the author. You may read other works by the author at www.chiefreasonart.com.