Skip to content

Archives for interview

See all posts in the network tagged with interview

Interview With Mark Warnick-Founder of Helping Our Own

No comments

First Published 11/12/06

 

VR: Mark; this is indeed an honor for me and the IACOJ. We feel so fortunate that you have taken the time to talk with us. How are you and Cleo doing at the moment?

 

MW: Right now, we are hanging in there. Of course, Kim Holman, my boss at Dalmatian Fire Equipment has made the transition a lot easier than it could have been. Having said that, being a new salesman, it’s tough to build a client base, and besides, I really am not a salesman; I am a fireman.

 

VR: If you don’t mind, I’d like you to tell us about yourself before you founded Helping Our Own (HOO) and don’t be modest; I have your biography!

 

MW: LOL, … Well, you know some of my past, but I am going to shock most of your readers with what I have to tell. In fact, I am going to tell you the abridged story of my life; one that I am writing a book about. Unfortunately, it was seized with my computer by those in Helping Our Own.

 

            I was a severely abused child. As far as I can recall, I was beaten from the age of 6 years old by an immediate family member with hammers, 2×4’s, sledgehammer handles, fists and so much more. Often times, I would go to school with bruises and I would be threatened with death if I told how I got those scars. Many years later, I would be told by doctors that there were broken bones during that time.

            While not proud of it, after leaving home and getting away from that family member, I was a total screw-up. I soon began having a drinking problem and thoughts of suicide. In the mid 80’s, I tried to commit suicide at the hands of police officers. This was something that landed me on probation for five years. While still on probation, I got into trouble for a bad check. I was spiraling down a bad road. My temper was out of control.

            While still in the confused trouble mode in my early twenties, someone came to me and offered me an EMS course. I decided to go ahead and take it. My attitude was like “What the hell; it can’t hurt anything.” This course changed my life! I soon began helping others and I liked what I did and I liked to help others. I made up my mind that the rest of my life would be spent helping others.

            I first joined a local volunteer EMS squad and I always thirsted for more knowledge. Within a year, because I was always bugging them about more training, they said “Hey, you want training, get it for us all. You’re now the training officer!” So I did. Local fire departments saw a passion in me and invited me to join. Soon, I was the Training Officer of a department and I was getting training from everywhere I could; for everyone.

            Things just progressed from there. After several years in these departments I moved and 3 days after moving into a small community in Missouri, the Chief and the President of the Board of the local fire department came knocking on my door, unsolicited. They said they had heard I was good at what I did and asked me if I would come to work on their department. I started out on this department as Training Officer and worked my way up to Assistant Chief. During this time, I worked for the County Emergency Management as training and exercise officer for three fire departments and was the Vice President of the County Mutual Aid association.

            When I saw a need for equipment for these departments, I took the basics of a couple ideas from others that were doing it for their own department and expanded it to help the whole county. The overwhelming success of this turned into Helping Our Own, a nationwide program.

 

VR: Who do you credit for getting you started in the fire service and what would you say to them now?

 

MW: I give credit to a nurse who thought I had the qualities of an EMS worker. If she were alive now, I would thank her and tell her she changed a troubled kid to become a person that is honored to help others and in one way or another helped to save many lives.

 

VR: What did you find to be the most rewarding aspect of your active duty?

 

MW: The most rewarding aspect was when you saved a life, especially a small child. With Helping Our Own, even though I wasn’t personally saving lives, I provided the equipment so others could save lives. This never would have been possible if not for the tools that the organization provided.

 

VR: Your “most memorable” incident? I know there are many, but if you had to “frame” one, what “one” would it be?

 

MW: There are several, but the one that sticks out in my mind happened about 15 years ago and I suffered post traumatic stress from it for about 8 or 9 years.

            We were called out about 16:30 in the afternoon for a “head-on” accident. When we arrived on scene, we saw a van on its side and another car down a deep ditch; a small ravine. As we jumped out of the rescue, we heard kids screaming in the back of the van. We opened up the van and we find 5 or 6 kids, ranging in age from 2 to 12 years old and one adult. They’re all screaming and crying and we are short handed, because of daytime staffing problems in a volunteer organization. I called three other departments to come in right away. Some of the kids wanted to rush out, so I grabbed a by-stander and had them watch the walking wounded, while my partner went to check the other car. I had another by-stander watch those that I didn’t want to move until either the ambulance arrived or I had the proper tools in hand to package them. I looked up and saw hips and legs of an adult coming out from the passenger door, which was on the pavement. I ran around to see what we had and I found the mother and a four or five month old baby cut in half by the door! Apparently, when the two vehicles hit headlight to headlight, the passenger door popped open, the woman and the baby were almost ejected and then the rolling of the van cut them in half.

When I went back inside to check on the remaining small children, I saw a six pack, literally strapped in the babies’ car seat. The stupid bitch strapped in a six pack and held the kid in her arms. In total, we lost three people that day; two adults and one infant. To make it worse, we found out that the woman that strapped the beer in the carrier caused the accident by slugging her sister in the jaw and kicking the steering wheel.

 

VR: We have talked about your heart; now, let’s talk about your “soul”- Helping Our Own. In just four, short years under the HOO banner, you collected, refurbished and distributed 28 million dollars worth of equipment to needy fire departments across the nation. What was your “strategic plan”?

 

MW: Actually, we moved $36 million (used value) of equipment in six years and helped somewhere around 800 fire departments. I was responsible for Operations. Find the equipment, get it to the refurb center, refurbish it and get it back out. I scheduled this by what they told me about money availability. Unfortunately, they continually lied and broke their word. We would be scheduling pick-ups for two weeks out and HR (Wilkinson) would walk up to the truck driver, never telling me this and say “We’re out of money, so you aren’t going back out for a while.” Meanwhile I had pick-ups scheduled two to three weeks out.

 

StickyNote: Update Mark’s biography!

 

VR: I have seen it in companies that grew too fast. They became “asset rich”, but “cash poor”. Is that what happened to HOO?

 

MW:  Actually, NO! What happened is that we were promised the moon and for a year or two, they did quite a lot. Then it was like they shut off the faucet and quit funding. We had numerous things in place, sometimes even a couple hundred thousand dollar deals and HR Wilkinson would stop it. We actually had payroll deduction to hand out to fire departments as we picked up and delivered equipment, brochures printed and everything set up and he even stopped that one.

 

VR: Were there any national sponsorships helping to under write your expenses?

 

MW: No, we weren’t allowed to bring those in and if we did, H.R. Wilkinson would find an excuse to not accept it.

 

VR: How/when did the Wilkinson Group enter the picture? Did you solicit them or did they solicit you?

 

MW: They actually solicited us I believe in late 2002. In fact, H.R. Wilkinson flew in representing the National Fire Safety Council to meet with me at ICHIEFS in New Orleans. He didn’t want his son K.C. to know he was there, because K.C. was working the National Fire Safety Council booth. About six or eight months later, I found out why. HR didn’t like his son having control, so he booted him out of the organization, took his car and just about everything he worked for. I heard that he even tried to kick his son, daughter-in-law and his two grandchildren (under 5 years old) out of the house, because he was a co-signer on their loan, but I can’t confirm this.

 

VR: Your relationship with that group was described as “tumultuous”. Is that how you would describe it?

 

MW: Tumultuous is an understatement! I was actually assaulted by H.R. Wilkinson several times and he’s over 80 years old. Once, he almost sucker punched me and Cleo screamed my name. When I spun around, he had his fist drawn back. As you can imagine, I stand up for myself. When I saw his fist drawn back, I assumed a defensive position and said “Old man, if you EVER sucker punch me, you will wake up in either the hospital or the morgue!”

            Once, when he assaulted me, I carried a bruise for about a week to a week and a half. He was a bully, a control freak and if an idea didn’t come from him or if he couldn’t add his own twist, it was no good.

 

VR: If I were to write an article entitled “The Gutting of Helping Our Own”, what would I write?

 

MW:  You’d write it was filled with broken promises and lies. I was promised pay and so were the Board of Directors that resigned. We were promised fundraising to help HOO grow, which never happened. Wilkinson would throw a little money here and a little money there from one of his other organizations, but there was never fundraising that I saw. I worked for five or six years with the promise of pay and not only did I not get paid, but they never paid me back my initial investment of $20,000 to $25,000, which they promised. Now, they are holding all of my personal belongings and refusing to give them back; things like my National Forestry Hero Award, The American Red Cross Everyday Hero Award, my firefighting certificates that were hanging on the walls, my patch and truck collections, my car and the title to it, which was in the filing cabinet. They even have the first, exact same fire truck (not one like it) I ever rode on when I was seven years old; a 1956 Ford with a Towers body.

Since August 30th, when they terminated Cleo and me, they have refused to return our personal belongings and Wilkinson refuses to talk to me. I think I need to start a legal fund, … LOL!

 

VR: With your foot prints all over HOO, were you concerned about the public’s perception of your group’s reputation?

 

MW: HOO is ruined! Even if they tried to give it back, it’s tainted and it can’t recover. Integrity is very important to me and I feel my integrity is now in question too, because I allowed myself to be sucked in by these people. That is why I will only work as a consultant for Fire Aid USA. I will help to prevent the organization from making the mistakes I did when running Helping Our Own. While this may seem a little conceited, I feel I have to make the next statement. Let’s face it, there is only one person in the world that knows how the operations of an organization like this works and I am that person. I need to pass the knowledge on while I still can.

 

VR: I know that you’re a real gentleman and had a board of directors that was above reproach, but from a legal aspect, why couldn’t you regain control of your dream? I mean; it almost sounds like there was a “hostile takeover”, doesn’t it?

 

MW:  LOL, … I could, if I had the money to fight it, but would it be worth it? I think the best thing to do and probably the most economical, would be to build another, get brothers and sisters to unite under Fire Aid USA and put Helping Our Own out of business.

            To be honest, if I could afford the attorneys, I would start a class action lawsuit on behalf of the fire departments of the United States and start a suit on behalf of Mark and Cleo Warnick. I would also talk to the original Board of Directors and see if they would be interested in a suit for breach of contract, because they were given a verbal contract of what would be done with HOO. It was more or less a hostile takeover, but done so we didn’t know it was a hostile takeover until much later.

They used a loophole in the law to lower the fundraising expenses of National Fire Safety Council with Helping Our Own donated equipment, so they didn’t look like they were a bad charity. Yet, they sell thousands of fire departments the idea of using their materials.

 

VR: I don’t mean to put you on the spot and I know that there are legal implications, but the national fire service wants to know-check that-they NEED to know the whole truth and nothing but the truth. Without complicating matters, what can you tell us?

 

MW: Hmmm, well, I can tell you that we have had people investigating (pro-bono)  Wilkinson and his operation. We recently found out that there are charges filed out of Pennsylvania on him, some of his board members and some of the charities, including National Fire Safety Council, and there are over 1,200 counts involved. A lot of the same board members are also members of Helping Our Own.

            I also know that he made many racial slurs, doesn’t hire disabled, blacks or Hispanics, yet took money from the federal government and said he was an equal opportunity employer. He would regularly say that he rarely hired firefighters because they were lazy; another war that we had often. I have heard from his own mouth that he used to hang around with Jimmy Hoffa, the Farmer, and many other Teamsters during their heydays and I have had people that were Teamsters during this time confirm it. He has taken over several organizations, much like he did Helping Our Own and done the same or worse to them. I also have overheard conversations where he was setting people up to discredit them, including planting evidence and shredding documents. He and some of the organizations he runs and board members were sued by the Missing Child Help Center lawyers on a bankruptcy case, and there is so much more that I can’t even list it.

I held on trying to get Helping Our Own away from him and I suspect that is why Cleo and I were let go. We also have our suspicions that the computers and office were bugged, because there was information thrown back in our face that was never talked about, except between Cleo and I.

            As far as me; I tried to do the best I could for my fire service. I always did my best to protect the brothers and sisters from mutts like this. Did I do everything perfect? Probably not, but I always tried to do all I could for the fire service. I fully expect that this is not over though and he and his cronies will try to do something to discredit me. That is just his way. Win at all costs and leave the carnage by the road.

 

VR: What was your reaction to the outpouring of support that you have seen by no less than Firehouse.com, Harry Carter, your good friend, Lou Jordan and of course, Kim Holman of Dalmatian Fire?

 

MW:  I have dealt with many of these people for years. Kim Holman has been informed all along the way about what was going on. For four years he was on the Board of Directors for HOO and was constantly trying to get me away to start Fire Aid USA. He was never invited to a Board meeting, he repeatedly asked for Board Meeting minutes, he repeatedly asked for financials statements and never got them from Wilkinson. I continually kept him up to date on what was going on and after about a year of being on the BOD and being screwed by Wilkinson for about $30,000 on refurbished SCBA, Kim begged me to come to Utah and start a new organization. Unfortunately, I was knee deep in trying to save Helping Our Own. Two days before we were removed, Kim asked me to come to Utah and be a salesman for him. He even talked about starting Fire Aid USA. When I received the papers from National Fire Safety Council, I called him right away. Within three weeks, we were in Utah. Because National Fire Safety Council had left us broke, even holding back paychecks from Cleo’s salary, Kim provided us the moving van and the money to move. When we got here, they had rented us a condo to live in and he got nine people (including himself) to help unload the truck and to help Cleo unpack. He took us out and bought us $400 worth of groceries and because I didn’t have a vehicle, he loaned me his Hummer for 6 weeks until we found the right car; then, he bought the car for us. Interestingly enough, even though Kim has never fought a real fire or served on a department, he has taken classes and since I’ve been here, both he and Trevor Johnston (the General Manager of Dalmatian) want to join the local fire department.

            As for Harry Carter, what a treasure he is. He and I have been friends for probably seven years. Often times (over the past 7 or 8 years), I will use Harry for a sounding board; someone to get directions from. The fire service has a true treasure in him and he’s not shy. The one thing that someone pointed out about his post (Firehouse.com) is that he has been a member since 1999 and this was his first post ever! I could go on and on about Harry, but I would just be telling everyone what they already know.

            Lou Jordan and many others have always been good friends and often, I would tell them what I was up against. Had it not been for them, I probably would have felt like a secluded man on an island and I thank them for their support.

            As far as the brothers and sisters that have been sending messages, it confirms to me that I was doing the right thing, although it surprised me by how many have come out of the woodwork with such kind things to say. The fire service is a family and we all know this. The support of this family has given me the inspiration to continue on and to fight harder for those that need our help. God willing, we will be able to help these folks and save some firefighters lives, but it is going to take more than me consulting the new organization. It’s going to take all of my brothers and sisters making a commitment of preventing Line of Duty Deaths by helping to protect firefighters that cannot afford PPE, SCBA or that drive a 50 year old piece of apparatus. I know that my fire service family can do it; I just pray that they actually do their part.

 

VR: Now, we have a dog with different spots. Tell us about Fire Aid USA. Will it be bigger and better?

 

MW:  If I have anything to say about it, Fire Aid USA will be bigger, better and do more than Helping Our Own. While we are still in the beginning stages, we are talking about having reserves ready to totally outfit a fire station should they get hit by fire, tornado or some other disaster. We are going to recycle anything that is not usable to help preserve the environment. We are going to try to prepare for the next disaster by having containers ready to ship with all of the most needed equipment for the next Katrina, earthquake or any other major disaster and we want to give equipment to any department that can’t afford it. We have many other ideas and they are all dependant on funding, but I can assure you, if this effort fails, it won’t be because of one person running it into the ground.

 

VR: If this were a template for a business class, what have you learned?

 

MW: Never trust anyone that might be potential mutts! 

 

VR: This is what I have learned: when a passion to fulfill a mission is as strong as your’s is, nothing and no one can kill that dream. Would you agree?

 

MW: I would agree with that; however, there are many days when you are discouraged. Usually in a day or two, someone will call or e-mail you and say “Hey, I just wanted to thank you.” Interestingly enough, I had an e-mail just the other day from a department in Mississippi that was wiped out by Katrina. The person that wrote me the e-mail said they were fighting a structure fire and were in the mop up process. While some of them were sitting around talking, one of them said “Hey, look at us, almost all of the PPE we have on came from Helping Our Own and Mark Warnick.” They said a long conversation ensued and they were fondly remembering how I got them help quickly, delivered it to their door and it didn’t cost them a dime.

Having said this, the beginnings of Fire Aid USA will take money. Both Kim Holman and I are willing to fork out the beginnings of that money. To help us reach that goal, if anyone needs any fire equipment, please keep Dalmatian Fire Equipment in mind, because this is how we have made and will make the money to start Fire Aid USA.

 

VR: As a former chief for a small, struggling, rural, volunteer fire department, I can only say “thank God there are people like you in the fire service”. You exemplify the spirit of the brother/sisterhood and set a sterling example for others coming up to follow. As is my custom, you have my thanks and the last word.

 

MW: I don’t think I am a sterling example; I am just a brother who does his part. For me, each time we lose a brother or sister firefighter, a small piece of my heart is ripped out. To me, I have to do everything I can to prevent this. By providing equipment and advice in the past, I have done as much as I could. I have always wondered if there was something I could have done to help save others. God willing, Fire Aid USA will continue on where Helping Our Own left off.

            My final words to all of the brothers and sisters out there are to do everything you can to protect and save your brothers and sisters. While honoring them after their gone is important, it is more important to try to keep them alive while they are here. Please do as much as you can.

 

Voice of Reason Post Script

 

It appears as though the Wilkinson Charities preyed upon successful, national non-profit organizations to extend their already burgeoning revenue streams.

 

I read the entire document of charges brought by the Pennsylvania Bureau of Charitable Organizations against the Wilkinson Charities and I got to tell you, Wilkinson’s [i]modis operandi[/i] is not that complicated.

 

Before I lay out some eye opening numbers on you, the crusty members, let’s look at what he did with the National Fire Safety Council, as described in the PA BCO’s legal action.

 

Wilkinson or those working under his direct control would send “safety counselors” into communities to promote fire safety, especially among school-aged children. The “safety counselors” would first go to the police/fire departments, get letters of support from the chiefs, show them to potential donors as “testimonials” and in return, the National Fire Safety Council would provide “free” materials to fire safety programs. I’m sure that the school kids were all given brochures, so that Mom and Dad could donate as well. But the real kicker is this: the “safety counselors would collect a 40% commission on the donations that they raised! WTF? Over!

 

It gets better!

 

According to the charges against Wilkinson in Pennsylvania, at the other end of this scheme, from 1998 – 2001, Wilkinson paid himself a total of $183,350.00 in compensation from the National Fire Safety Council. Doesn’t seem so bad on the surface, does it?

 

Ah; there’s more.

 

Wilkinson took compensation from [b]ALL[/b] of his charities. From 1998 – 2001, H.R. Wilkinson took $1,664,167.43 in compensation from his Wilkinson “Charities”. That’s not a typo!

 

And that’s not counting the money he got from his H & T Rentals and Valley Bingo deal. From 1999 – 2001, Wilkinson received a total of $495,000 in “subleasing payments”. Hey, folks; I ain’t making this up. It’s in the public record!

 

Here’s another eye popper.

 

Missing Child, a Florida non-profit started by Ivanna DiNova and taken over by Wilkinson’s National Child charity had to file bankruptcy. Could it be because Missing Child, from 1997 – 2001, pumped $5.6 million into National Child, but only received $120,000 back? Man; I can’t believe that 60 Minutes and Mike Wallace didn’t go after this guy!

 

Anyone out there feel like buying your fire education materials from National Fire Safety Council and the Wilkinson Charities?

 

It is clear that Mark and Cleo Warnick and Helping Our Own were victims, like so many others were. And the “Valley Bingo Lease” reads like a scheme that was hatched by a drunk trying to hide his girlfriend from his wife!

 

Let’s not forget that Wilkinson was licensed in Michigan and Texas. Will he be charged in those states as well? The Pennsylvania beef has been there for two years. Does anyone know the disposition? Can our brothers from PA shed some light?

 

Is it safe to say here that we have yet another example of the greedy taking from the needy?

 

And if the fact that you can no longer access www.helpingourown.org is any indication, then Helping Our Own is dead.

 

Long live Fire Aid USA and God bless them!

 

The article as submitted is published under The Adventures of Jake and Vinnie© umbrella and is the intellectual property of Art Goodrich a.k.a. xchief22 and ChiefReason. It is protected by federal copyright laws and cannot be re-printed in any form without expressed permission from the author.

Posted by chiefreason on January 18, 2009 • Filed under: Interviews • Tagged: , , , , ,

Interview With Captain Gonzo

No comments

Interview With The Chairman of the Board

Captain Gonzo; In The Words of Ron Ayotte

 

First Published 2/26/05

 

The column known as the Voice of Reason has been silent for some time. I have been devoting most of my time to The Adventures of Jake and Vinnie.

So, I thought it was high time that I bring back The Voice of Reason…with a ROAR!

To that end, I able proud to say that I have snagged an interview with a very colorful individual that kindly consented to spend some time with me.

This was pure enjoyment on my part. To sit down with a Jake and exchange ideas and “talk shop” is something that has to be shared.

And with that, I give you our very own…Captain Gonzo-In His Own Words!

 

VR: Ron; thank you for taking the time for this interview.

 

CG: No problem. I’m honored.

 

VR: What do you want to share about your home life?

 

CG: I am married to a wonderful woman, Trish, who has put up with my quirks and idiosyncrasies for 25+ years. Our “baby”, Jonathan, is 21 and a junior at Umass-Dartmouth. The rest of the “kids” are our two dogs and two cats: Bernie, Murphy, Jake and Mia.

 

VR: We have talked about Jonathan before. You described him with great pride the work ethic and maturity of him. Has he chosen his career path yet?

 

CG: He is majoring in computer graphics and visual design, leaning toward typography…designing catalogs, brochures, etc. I have shown some of his artwork to a few “friends in high places”, who happen to work in the graphics design field and they agree that he has talent. He does want to take the next firefighter entrance exam, though. Maybe he wants to follow the old man into the fire service.

 

VR: Wasn’t your son re-furbishing a Mustang?

 

CG: It had a Saleen body kit applied and a new paint job. To my son, it’s still a work in progress.

 

VR: Have you got a project car that you’re working on?

 

CG: No. As soon as we are done paying college tuition and Trish’s Jeep is paid off, I’m buying a toy. I am undecided between a sports sedan like a BMW 330is, Acura TL, Mercedes C230 Kompressor or a 2005 Mustang GT. Too many choices!

 

VR: You have a car detailing business. How did you get started with that?

 

CG: I am a clean car fanatic. I became a clean car fanatic when I bought my first, decent car out of college. I detailed a van for one of my wife’s friends; she told others and it took off from there. Most of my clientele are cops, jakes and EMS personnel.

 

VR: Do you have any time for hobbies?

 

CG: I like to read. I love fire books and military techno-thrillers. I do some free lance writing and reporting for two local weekly newspapers and I had an article published in Firehouse Magazine (Apparatus Detailing November 1992). I also enjoy photography, cars and aircraft.

 

VR: Speaking of hobbies, I read somewhere that you have taken up flying. Do you plan on going out West and flying water birds?

 

CG: Someday… (laughing) I am presently going for my private pilot VFR ticket and I am taking ground school right now. I might try for my IFR (Instrument Flight) later on. Do you know what makes an airplane fly? Money! It costs about $9K to get your private pilot VFR ticket from the FAA. To fly the “water birds” requires a commercial IFR multi-engine rating. If you want to fly the Bombardier CL amphibian, you need to add a seaplane and amphibian rating…mucho dinero!

 

VR: This leads me to your current occupation. Did you plan for it or did it “just happen”?

 

CG: A little of both, actually.

 

VR: What drew you to it? I mean; besides the excitement of riding the tailboard? You did ride the tailboard?

 

CG: I lived across the street from a firehouse when I was 5 to 8 years old. The station was Dracut Fire Headquarters. I wanted to be a “fireman” when I grew up. Then my parents split up and we moved to Lowell. I lived in Engine 2/Ladder 2 and Engine 7’s response area. In my teens, I learned to play guitar and wanted to be a rock star. As I got older, I wanted to become an FM radio personality (getting paid to talk on the radio and listen to music…what a country!) I went to college as a public communications major, but the dream of being a firefighter was still in my head. The opportunity came; I grabbed it and haven’t looked back.

 

VR: Growing up; what was the funniest thing that happened to you as an aspiring, young smoke-eater?

 

CG: I was walking to school (James S. Daley Jr. High) one morning, when I saw Engine 2 and Ladder 2 go by with their sirens wailing. I could see the smoke up ahead, so I went and “sparked” the fire. I ended up being late for school, smelling like a conflagration and getting a week’s detention for a smart-assed remark…when I was asked why I was late for school, I said something like “Isn’t it obvious?” or something to that effect.

 

VR: What was the scariest?

 

CG: Having my own home on fire. It was December, 1961. My paternal grandmother was staying with us. She was a smoker and after she had her last cigarette of the evening, she emptied her ashtray into the trash can in the pantry area, setting the house on fire! Dracut had a volunteer fire department back then. Living across the street from the firehouse helped with the quick response!

 

VR: Can you talk about some of the safety or lack of it in your early years?

 

CG: I was fortunate to be assigned to a group where there was a lot of “crust”. They kept me out of trouble until I went to the Academy and got some experience and fires under my belt. I did wear my bunker pants before it became part of the standard turnout ensemble. Someone I worked with got a nasty burn when a large cinder went into his hip boots during an overhaul. That was an attention getter for me.

 

VR: When you talk about your early years, you sound as if there was immediate respect for the senior firefighters. Did you ever believe that they were dumping on you or did you know going in that you had to “earn your spot”?

 

CG: The “rookie” gets all of the glory jobs in the station, you know; you get to clean the heads, the responsibility to make sure the coffee is always fresh and the pot is full, go to do the lunch run, if we order out, etc. I did my time without complaint. Hell, there were times that I couldn’t sleep, so I would go down to the apparatus floor and wash all the rigs. There were a couple of jakes who tried to rattle my cage, but I considered the source and would ignore their bullshit. I worked with one guy who ran a business on the side. At that time, there were only two of us working in a substation. He told me “I want you to answer the phone and screen my calls…if it’s my wife, I’ll take it. If not; blow them off”. That was a huge mistake on his part. Funny; it seemed that every call was from his wife, regardless if she was or not! When he got royally pissed at me, I told him I wasn’t his personal answering service and if he had a problem, “we could call uptown and speak to the Captain”. That crap stopped immediately! He wasn’t long for the job…he quit and moved to Florida to start a new business venture.

 

VR: Did any of that concern weigh in to your decision to become a fire academy instructor?

 

CG: I’m not an instructor. I work in the support services division of the Massachusetts Fire Academy. The official title is “Fire Instructor Aide”. Support Services works with the instructional staff of all the programs. For Recruits, we drive the trucks, set up the fires in the burn building, light them and assist the instructional staff.

 

VR: Have you seen any changes in the focus of the programs vs. the focus of the cadets?

 

CG: I went through the Academy in early 1982 as part of Recruit Class 56. The program then was eight weeks long. The Academy just graduated Recruit Class 166. The course is now eleven weeks long and has been adapted to fit the changing needs of the fire service. The Academy has gone through tremendous change. From its humble beginnings as the Central Massachusetts Fire Training Academy in 1967, it has evolved and is part of the Executive Office of Public Safety, Department of Fire Services.

 

VR: Tell us about your fire department. Calls per year, EMS, HazMat, etc.

 

CG: The Marlborough Fire Department covers an area of 22 square miles and a population of 39K. We have three districts and run three Engines, two Ladders, and one Rescue in frontline status from three stations. There are two reserve engines, seven support vehicles, three equipment trailers and a boat trailer.

In addition to the Chief of Department, there are four Deputy Chiefs, four Captains, eight Lieutenants and fifty-six firefighters, covering four groups. We work (2) ten-hour days, (2) fourteen-hour nights and then have 4 days off. The schedule averages out to a 42-hour week.

Computer-aided Dispatching is done at the Public Safety Communications Center, located in the Police Station. Dispatchers are cross-trained in PD and FD dispatch protocols and work side-by-side.

We have averaged 5,000+ calls a year over the last 5 years. We do fire suppression, prevention, education, rescue, hazmat, public service calls and first responder EMS on the BLS level. A private ambulance company provides transports and ALS services.

 

VR: Aside from you, are there any other “colorful” characters on your department? You know; something that I could use in Jake and Vinnie?

 

CG: I work with 72 of them!

 

VR: Can you tell us about a couple of your more memorable calls?

 

CG: Two are ingrained into my memory.

January 5, 1984: we had a house fire with people trapped. I was assigned to the Rescue that night. We pulled up to find the parents screaming “our kids are still in there! They are trapped in their bedrooms!!!” My partner on the Rescue and I went to the second floor bedrooms where we found a 3 year-old boy, a 5 year-old girl and the family’s dog overcome by smoke. The dog refused to leave the children’s’ side and perished. The children were pronounced dead at Marlborough Hospital. That fire still makes my eyes tear up to this very day.

On March 17, 2000…just after midnight, we responded to a house fire with a report of a person trapped. I was in command of the first due engine. We had heavy involvement and attacked the fire with a deuce and a half with a smoothbore nozzle. I watched in horror as my crew went through the floor and into the basement. It was the first and only MAYDAY I have ever called in my career. Four of us were taken to the hospital as a result of that fire for burns, lacerations, dehydration and exhaustion. The victim was found just three feet away from the rear door. It was the grandfather of the children we lost in 1984! It was déjà vu all over again.

 

VR: Where did you find your greatest level of satisfaction; as a fire dog at the end of the hose, crawling down the hot, smoky hallway or as a captain, shepherding a crew through a maze of intense peril?

 

CG: I still do both! If we have a full shift with nobody out, I have three firefighters and myself on the Engine; otherwise, it’s two firefighters and me. I don’t get to grab the knob anymore, but I’m humping hose behind the knob. I still play shepherd. When the crap hits the fan and conditions deteriorate, I have to “get the flock out of there”!

 

VR: If you’re still humping hose, you got LTs going for coffee or what?

 

CG: If you’re not humpin’ it, you’re pumpin’ it! I don’t hump it that often, but if I am inside with my crew, I lend a hand. I would never ask anyone of my personnel to do something that I wouldn’t do and many hands make light work. As long as I am riding on a company, I’m just another pair of hands; only at a higher pay scale and more responsibility.

 

VR: What’s the motivation behind the man and do you hope to lead a department of your own as its chief officer some day?

 

CG: I have a simple mantra…”everybody goes home”. Firefighters don’t realize the responsibility that their company officers have. There are times where you have to pull your personnel out of the building just when they think they have the fire knocked down; be the bad guy and say “no” when they ask for favors; or be the bad guy and reprimand someone. But the firehouse isn’t Utopia and it isn’t a democracy…get over it and move on. As far as eventually becoming the “big kahuna” in a department…it’s a thankless job. You have to deal with the public, the politicians and your personnel on some of the most trivial matters and everyone who doesn’t get what they want feels that you are personally screwing them! I’m presently on the list for Deputy Chief. There are a few, potential openings in the near future. One step at a time…

 

VR: That’s a mantra everybody could live by! And I have every confidence that you’ll get another bugle.

 

VR: Can you describe the politics inherent to the system for our younger members?

 

CG: It doesn’t matter if the department is career, combination, call or volunteer. There are always political games going on…people jockeying for position, trying to get favors and either looking for things to do or trying to avoid doing things. Be careful with who you align yourself. Do your job, do it well and you will go far.

 

VR: If your city manager/mayor came to you and said “I have $500,000 and I want you to spend it”; what would you buy with it for the department?

 

CG: I would replace the oldest engine in the fleet, upgrade PPE and spend the rest on training.

 

VR: I have always remembered the photo of you in a small group standing outside the site of the Worcester Cold Storage Warehouse fire. Sunglasses, ball cap, dark moustache, narrow jaw, solid build on what looks like a 180-190 pound frame. Talk about the significance of that fire and the effect it had on you.

 

CG: You forgot to add “devastatingly handsome”! (laughing out loud) The W6 fire did have an effect. I knew a lot of Worcester Jakes through the academy (many of them are named in Sean Flynn’s book 3000 Degrees). I was acquainted with two members of the W6 and a good friend of mine was the aide to Chief MacNamee that night. Just about my entire Department went to the Memorial service on the 9th of December, with the exception of the on-duty crew. I think a lot of fire departments took accountability a lot more seriously after the fire and if they didn’t…SHAME ON THEM; for they could be the next “Worcester”.

 

VR: Hey; I was trying to say that you cut quite a figure in the picture. I have a hard time referring to other men as “handsome”. Not that there’s anything wrong with that! But, who were the others in the photo?

 

CG: John McMahon, aka ExJake, retired Deputy Chief from the Dedham, MA FD and editor in chief of FireFightersForums.com; his son, Macky, the webmaster of the FFF’s; Jim Preston, aka JMP17, a firefighter with the Meshantucket Pequot Tribal Nation FD, aka the Foxwoods Casino FD; and Todd Bales, aka ImaFF4free, IACOJ trustee emeritus and an administrator at the FFF’s. Jim also works as a crew chief for a private EMS firm and visits the Worcester site often when he is doing transfers to the UMass Memorial Medical Center. On a side note, I have a small piece of brick from the W6 site that I keep as a reminder of how fragile Life is and how fast it can be taken.

 

VR: Will there be a day when there are no more ‘Worcesters’? In your opinion, what will it take?

 

CG: God, I hope so. We have to change our mindset and get out of the “balls to the wall” reaction we have to fighting fires. We have to weigh risk vs. benefit. The night of the Worcester fire, there was high risk, with reported human life in the building. Mike MacNamee had to make a decision that night that I doubt many of us will ever have to make. He made the right one. Otherwise; we might have heard of the “Worcester 12” or more. Risk vs. benefit…let’s look at our responses to car fires. Tones go off, we don our gear, respond, see the red stuff, mask up, grab the line and “go aggressive on the fire”. For what? Unless there are people trapped in the vehicle, the vehicle is in a garage or next to a building, where is the risk? What is the benefit? The insurance company totals just about every vehicle that catches fire. We busted our asses for what? Two tons of burnt metal, melted plastics and broken glass…that’s what!

 

VR: During size up, do you think risk vs. benefit is over-looked, ignored or not factored into the strategy?

 

CG: Unfortunately, both overlooked and ignored. We tend to be the moth attracted to the flame, but forget what and where the flame is coming from and what it is doing to the structure, in the case of a building fire.

 

VR: That’s heavy stuff. Let’s switch to some “fun” stuff. How’d you get your username; a name known both far and wide, Captain Gonzo?

 

CG: One of our dispatchers and a very good friend of mine started calling me “Ronzo” when I first got on “da job”. I have a weird sense of humor at times and one day, he called me “Gonzo Ronzo”. The “Ronzo” got dropped and “Gonzo” stuck. When I first joined the Firehouse Forums, I was a Lieutenant, so Lt. Gonzo was the handle I picked. When I got promoted, I had to start all over again, so I used the handle Captain Gonzo.

 

VR: So, your username didn’t have anything to do with the fuzzy, little Muppet bird?

 

CG: I loved the Muppet show; Gonzo rocks! The character didn’t have anything to do with the nickname, but I do want him to be painted on both my cow lids eventually. I would like to see the IACOJ adopt Waldorf and Astor (the two old Muppet men who were the “critics” of the show)…they exude crust!

 

 

VR: With the exception of a couple of extremists, you have the respect of an entire fire service at Firehouse.com. To what do you attribute that?

 

CG: I can see other people’s point of view, admit when I am wrong and adapt to the changes that come up. I may not agree with everyone’s opinion and I can agree to disagree with them. For example; Tiller25 on FH.com. Chris and I are on opposite ends of the spectrum when it comes to the IAFF; we agree to disagree and we both have stated that we should get together and have a few cold ones and chew the fat. I can also use humor and laugh at myself. I feel sorry for those who are so extreme in their views that they cannot do the same.

 

VR: If you were the Web Team at Firehouse.com, what would you change?

 

CG: Nothing! They are the template from which all other firefighter websites came from and they do an excellent job. They have tens of thousands in their forums. Some are “one post wonders”, some go there just to stir the excrement pot and others post so often that you swear they live there…guilty as charged! (laughing)

 

VR: You started what has become known as The International Association of Crusty Old Jakes (IACOJ). Did you ever believe that Heather Caspi would call you up for an interview that would appear on the front page at Firehouse.com?

 

CG: That was a total surprise. I think that the IACOJ signature of so many FH.com members got them thinking about us…not as a rival organization, but as a partnership. We could never approach the amount of news resources and advertising revenues they have, but what we have, I feel, is a “personal touch”. I agreed to do an interview for a “quid pro quo”…the chance for the “Voice of Reason” to interview Firehouse.com’s founder Dave Iannone. He agreed, I agreed and we both learned from it. It increased our membership, so I think we got the better part of the deal.

 

VR: You know; there are many firefighter websites out there. You get a username and a password and BOOM-you’re in. I say that the IACOJ is the only one out there that actually “screens” members. What do you think?

 

CG: I concur.

 

VR: Why do you think people want to join the IACOJ?

 

CG: Three reasons. (1) Camaraderie: we all get along. (2) Exclusivity: since we screen our applicants, being able to say that you are IACOJ means something. (3) Last but not least…you can use the occasional “F” bomb without everybody getting all bent out of shape.

 

VR: Where does creating the IACOJ fall on your list of accomplishments?

 

CG: Right now, it’s in the Top Ten.

 

VR: Overall, are you happy with your journey or would you have taken a different road at some point?

 

CG: If I could turn back time (Oh, my God…I’m sounding like Cher!) and change things…I wouldn’t. We all say “woulda/coulda/shoulda”, but hindsight is 20/20. The “road” has made me what I am and placed me where I am. Sure; there have been speed bumps, frost heaves and potholes along the way, but Life isn’t perfect.

 

VR: That’s pretty heavy again. I had promised Jake that he could have a shot at you. I have no idea what he has in mind. You up for it?

 

CG: Shoot!

 

Jake: Well, Cap; we finally get to “chat”. You know; there’s this “rumor” out there, probably started by that thumb-sucking Vinnie that you and I have a lot in common. Besides rank, do you see any similarities between us?

 

CG: There’s a few…and I am going to be honest with you, Jake. I like my Guinness, the love of the job, the respect for tradition and I have been known to be a “klutz” at times (but I never stapled my thumb!). The family thing…there was a time when I first got promoted to Lt. when I was probably headed towards the intersection of “separation road” and “divorce drive”. The pressure and responsibility of “da job” and a crew determined to bust my cojones started getting to me and I started bringing the “firehouse” to MY house until I hit a pothole, woke up, smelled the coffee and talked to someone. I love my coffee; do you?

 

Jake: I see some similarities. You have an uncanny memory. But as Jake became more interested in being the best firefighter that he could be and moving up the chain of command, he was neglecting his family obligations. In his mind, the very reason that he was working so hard-his family-was actually causing him to lose them. Yeah; that was from my very first episode. Truth, sometimes, seems stranger than fiction! You also remember the “stapler incident”, eh? That was all Vinnie’s fault. Little puker is lucky I wasn’t using a nail gun at the time, ‘cause I would’ve emptied a whole clip in his ass. If you want something to go wrong, just have Vinnie around! And do I love coffee? Does Howdy Doody have wooden balls?

 

CG: Yes, but I heard that his were made of balsa wood (laughing).

 

Jake: Jeez; I’m havin’ a hard time not fuckin’ swearing. I know some pups might read this, but shit; I mean, that’s how I fuckin’ communicate. You got that problem sometimes?

 

CG: We all do. There are times where the occasional “F” bomb is appropriate. It is probably the most versatile word in the English language. It can be a noun, verb, adjective and adverb can be used in any tense and has its equivalent in just about any language!

 

Jake: My mom hates hearin’ that shit, you know? I know if I want to piss her off royal, all’s I need to do is “punctuate” a sentence with the old “F” bomb! She’s get very “tense”. You ever use “descriptive” language, Cap or do you use restraints?

 

CG: It depends on the situation. I try not to swear-it sounds like Hell-but there are times where you have to use an occasional “F” bomb for emphasis.

 

Jake: OK; let’s do word association. Kind of a “Pictionary” without paper. I’ll say a word and you say the first word that comes to your mind. You up for that?

 

CG: Sure.

 

Jake: Stationhouse coffee. Fuck; two words. OK; coffee.

 

CG: mmmm coffee!

 

Jake: Music.

 

CG: Anything but gangsta rap. Shit, that’s four words.

 

Jake: Firetruck-technically one word.

 

CG: Red.

 

Jake: Dog.

 

CG: I’ll need two words for that: unconditional love and devotion. Okay; that’s four.

 

Jake: Bar.

 

CG: Refuge.

 

Jake: Drink.

 

CG: Guinness.

 

Jake: Computer.

 

CG: Necessity.

 

Jake: Smoke.

 

CG: In my best New England/Bahstin accent: Fire!

 

Jake: Sky.

 

CG: Flying.

 

Jake: Car.

 

CG: Porsche!

 

Jake: That’s it for me. You got anything else? You know; somethin’ good for the group, as they say? You got the last word.

 

CG: Firefighters have two families…the one they work with and the one they live with. Both are intertwined, but the family at home is numero uno…never forget that!

 

 The article as submitted is published under The Adventures of Jake and Vinnie© umbrella and is the intellectual property of Art Goodrich a.k.a. xchief22 and

ChiefReason. It is protected by federal copyright laws and cannot be re-printed in any form without expressed permission from the author.

Posted by chiefreason on January 17, 2009 • Filed under: Interviews • Tagged: , , , , ,

Interview with Chief Mark Wessel of Keokuk, IA FD

No comments

Author’s Note: This article first appeared as a “Voice of Reason” article under my pen name ChiefReason in October of 2004 during Fire Prevention Week. I am re-printing it here for several reasons. I do so to honor the memory of Dave McNally, Nathan Tuck and Jason Bitting, the three firefighters who gave the ultimate sacrifice in the performance of their duties. I do so to keep my promise to Chief Wessel to continue to spread his message. And I also want anyone who thinks that they are ready to take the leadership role in their department to read this and then ask themselves if they are ready. I am providing the link to the NIOSH report for those who wish to read a more in-depth account of the events that occurred on December 22, 1999.   http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face200004.html

 

On December 22, 2007, it will be eight years ago that Keokuk, IA Fire Department suffered its worst firefighter loss of life to a residential fire.

 

On December 22, 1999, the fire department was decimated by the deaths of Assistant Chief Dave McNally, Firefighter Nathan Tuck and Firefighter Jason Bitting. A young mother lost three of her children. A catastrophe times six!

 

I believe that the lessons learned from this fire are important to future generations, because it is Middle America and occurred in a town with a population of about 13,000. The demographics of this community could mirror many across our nation.

 

Keokuk is protected by a career department consisting of 18 firefighters and a chief. A shift is covered by 5-6 firefighters beginning at 7:00 am with a callback system and mutual aid.

 

I have asked someone who is very close to Mark to introduce this extraordinary gentleman.

 

So I will defer to none other than Chief Billy Goldfeder, founder of www.firefighterclosecalls.com.

 

INTRODUCTION:

 

Chief Mark Wessel is a fire chief like many of us-and like many of us, started off at the bottom rung and worked his way up. He has responded to numerous fires, rescues and related emergencies and has reacted like many of us-from the good to the bad-from the happy to the sad. And like many of us, has tried to do the best he can with what he has to work with-from the budgets to the equipment to the firefighters. Just another hard working fire chief in the USA.

 

Things changed drastically for Chief Wessel and the members of the Keokuk FD in 1999 when not only were 3 children lost in a fire-but 3 of his firefighters as well. The actual story can be found below. My comments are related from a more personal standpoint as far as the “before and after” of when bad stuff, real bad stuff happens.

 

So often in the fire service, we never learn. In some cases, even tragic events don’t change the behaviors of a fire department….even when it happens to them! And that only makes the event more tragic. But in recent times, as horrible as some losses have been, there are some leaders that have tried hard all along-but when the bad occurs, have the guts and leadership to effect change-no matter what the barriers. One such excellent example of that is Chief Mark Wessel. Chief Wessel could have taken many “roads” following this tragic event but that’s not the kind of person he is. It is clear to anyone, once they talk to him, that they will understand that he had the courage to MAKE THE CHANGES and will discuss and share what happened in Keokuk with firefighters anywhere so “that” does not happen to them. Kind of a “history repeating itself” prevention officer. He shares what they did wrong, what they did right and how ANY FD can learn from the horror that he and his firefighters went through. His message is clear-this kind of event does NOT have to happen to you and while yes-he has enacted some very radical changes, Mark’s focus is what all of ours should be everyday-that EVERY FIREFIGHTER RETURNS HOME AFTER EVERY ALARM.

 

It is a pleasure to introduce this interview with my friend and colleague, Chief Mark Wessel.

 

Btn. Chief Billy Goldfeder, E.F.O.

October 2004

 

 

CR: Chief; first of all, thank you for sharing your experiences of this tragic incident. It is a story that I feel needs to be told again and again. The fact that you have traveled this country recounting it is an extraordinary display of humility and strength of character on your part.

 

CW: Thank you, Chief.  This is the only way I can think of that and possibly make something good come out of a very tragic event in our department.

 

CR: I have heard you speak on three occasions. The first time was at the memorial service on Sunday, December 26, 1999. The second time was at Tazewell County Fire School in East Peoria, IL in April of 2002 and just recently in New Windsor, Il on September 16th. And all three times, I sat in awe of your composure. Where do you find the emotional strength to relive that tragic day time after time?

 

CW: Actually, the only way I can describe where the strength comes from is through God and everyone’s prayers.  That day was one of the most, if not the most horrible day of my life.  The loss of our brothers has been horrible to say the least.  The only way I can describe how I am able is simply this: I relive the day in my mind, everyday.  I will never forget the horror for the families, the firefighters, the community, and myself.  All I have left are opportunities to share the experience in hopes someone, somewhere, will be safer.

 

CR: You delivered not one, but three eulogies at the memorial service; all the while, looking at the faces of the families of the three, fallen firefighters. Was it surreal? Were you in a state of shock, denial; what?

How did you do it?

 

CW: To be quite honest, I remember being mostly numb.  I felt so humbled and responsible that all I could think about was the fact that no matter what words were said, they were not adequate.  The entire ordeal was so far above my ability to comprehend, I just existed through the service.  Fortunately, there were so many people that assisted myself, and the department, so that things ran smoothly.  I will never be able to express my gratitude enough to all those people.

 

CR: You did your program at Tazewell on “The Disaster Has Become Personal”. You described the preparation for the memorial, the funeral and arranging for the benefits for the firefighters’ families. You spoke of some battles that you fought during this time. I particularly remember one involving John Buckman, who, I believe, was president of the National Volunteer Fire Council (NFVC) at the time. Can you talk about that?

 

CW: Actually, Chief Buckman was representing the IAFC.  Sometimes people lose perspective of why we were gathered that day.  Politics sometimes supersedes common sense.  Fortunately, it was not a local issue, but more of a national issue as to who would be allowed to sit on the stage (how many union representatives vs. non-union representatives).  Chief Buckman was not the problem.  I was able to mitigate the problem and move forward with the program as planned.  I would like to clarify that I certainly appreciate Chief Buckman traveling to Keokuk to represent the IAFC. That was the first time I had met Chief Buckman, and all I can say is he has been there for my department and me.  I believe we have developed a very good friendship over the past 5 years.   

 

CR: Tell us about the public’s reaction to the overwhelming presence of all of the firefighters at the memorial service.

 

CW: I believe the general public viewed first hand what we mean when we speak of the brotherhood.  The interesting part of the brotherhood in this part of the country is, whether you are paid or volunteer, you belong.  Although the Keokuk Fire Department is all career, and has been for 125 years, when we require assistance, it’s the volunteers that we call on.  I so much appreciate their help for that time and since.

 

CR: Governor Tom Vilsack was in attendance. Were you given any private time with him and can you share with us what was said?

 

CW: There really wasn’t much time.  The Governor traveled here that day, spoke some words of regret and encouragement then returned to Des Moines just after the service. 

 

CR: Assistant Chief Dave McNally and you had a relationship before the two of you joined the fire department. Please tell us about your friend.

 

CW: Dave and I knew each other before we were ever hired onto the department.  We weren’t what you would call running buddies, but occasionally would hang out together.  Dave and I were hired about a year apart.  He more senior to me.  I guess to give a perspective of how our careers evolved, I’ll give a quick and dirty.  Mid 70’s; both firefighters.  Early ’81, Dave became a Lieutenant and I was a firefighter on his shift.  In 1983, I became a Lieutenant and we were on different shifts.  In 1988, I was promoted to Assistant Chief.  Dave was my Lt. In 1995, Dave was appointed Assistant Chief.  In 1997, I was appointed Chief.  Dave was the best.  I would have followed him anywhere.

 

CR: Nathan Tuck was 39 years old at the time, but had only been on the department 4-1/2 years. Did his desire to join come from his other community involvements?

 

CW: I think Nate was all about helping.  It really didn’t matter what he was doing, just so he could help someone.  High school kids seemed to be his passion.  His personality was just right for them.  Nate was so compassionate.  Always encouraging.  That can be an elusive trait to find today.

 

CR: When I see pictures of Jason Bitting, I see youthful exuberance and eyes full of promise. Tell us about Jason.

 

CW: Jason is kind of hard for me.  I think because of the age difference.  A big teddy bear!  So strong, so willing, so intelligent, yet still remaining naïve enough to have a burning desire to live and to learn.  Jason was the kind of person you had to love. 

 

Actually, all three of the guys were so special.  I was able to fill the vacant positions, but could never replace those three special firefighters.

 

CR: Let’s talk about the NIOSH report and especially, the recommendations. Staffing was an issue. It is obvious that your resources were stretched by the MVA and then the report of the residential fire. Is it safe to say that your initial response to the fire was a quint, engine and four personnel. Was this SOP?

 

CW: Yes; that was the initial response.  Whenever you have a total shift of 6 personnel, a 5 man minimum and answer 850 to 900 calls for service a year, you are going to have times when you respond to an emergency with 3, 4, or 5 personnel on the initial response.  This is what we learned:  It’s not how many you respond with, it’s what you do with them when you arrive.  If you lose perspective of the whole picture, it doesn’t matter how many you have.

 

CR: What do you believe NIOSH considered an appropriate staffing level for a city like Keokuk?

 

CW: I think this will also better explain the previous question.  I don’t think NIOSH actually stated how many personnel would be an appropriate staffing level for a community like Keokuk.  If you were to take into consideration NFPA and all of the evolutions that need to be accomplished, I would think that number would be somewhere between 13 and 16 personnel.  Now; that would be for a single-family dwelling.  Next; take into consideration the age and condition of the community.  How about all of the commercial structures in the community?  And, the industrial base that Keokuk serves?  I guess one might easily estimate the need for 24 to 30 personnel on duty ready to respond.  But, the $700 question.  How do we pay for it?  We don’t. We make due with what we can afford.  With that comes responsibility to formulate SOP’s that can be affected safely.  If you can’t do that, then stand back and become defensive in your attack of the emergency.  It’s much easier to stand in front of the media and say we had to let it burn because we did not have the resources to use a reasonable amount of safety to protect the firefighters than it is to conduct a memorial service.  It’s much easier to look at a reporter with rubble in the background than to look into the faces of the grieving family of a firefighter.  That I can say with certainty, and anyone reading this should take it to the bank.

 

CR: The report recommended that the IC does initial size-up before initiating firefighting efforts and then continually evaluating risk versus gain as the incident continues. AC McNally was the highest rank initially. Wouldn’t he have done a size-up before starting search-and-rescue? And would you not take command once on scene under “normal” circumstances?

 

CW: Under normal circumstances, yes.  TUNNEL VISION played a huge role in the way that fire was approached.  Mother, with a 4 year old in hand, screaming, “MY BABIES ARE INSIDE” was key to the deviation from normal operations.  I believe being keyed up from the MVA that morning just prior to the call-in fact they were called off of that incident to this one-played a part in the initial operation.  Having no medical transport available played a key role.  One might say that this fire was routine.  ROUTINE is no longer a word in our vocabulary.  Other than pulling into the fire scene and seeing smoke from a residential structure, there was nothing else routine about it.  There was nothing normal about that day.

 

CR: Do you think too much emphasis or not enough is put on an ICS? What would it have done for you on this day? You had to get the kids out. In retrospect, break the incident down to what might have been done differently.

 

CW: I truly feel ICS is the most important aspect of firefighter safety we can have on the emergency scene.  Good command should reflect control, coordination, goals and communication.  I guess I could beat myself up indefinitely over the operation.  Some may even say I should.  Trust me; I have.  Through this I have gained nothing.  What has been most effective is dissecting the incident into pieces small enough to calculate.  Also, dissecting the department so that the task is not so overwhelming in the development of good SOP’s, SOG’s. 

 

CR: “Defensive search” was mentioned. I don’t mind telling you that it put a silly look on my face. The only thing that I could think that it meant was to take a long stick and poke it through a window and maybe someone would grab it. How close am I?

 

CW: Actually Chief, you’re not to far off.  What defensive search actually refers to is the idea of not over committing.  Do not place yourself in a position that you might become part of the problem.  I know we train to rescue people.  I know we all have learned the right hand rule and left hand rule on primary search and rescue.  Let me just say this:  If you have firefighters who have not had this training, they should not be your rescue team.  If you are a firefighter who has not had this training, then you should refuse to perform interior search and rescue.  I was teaching a basic breathing apparatus class and was asked the question about CEU’s for HAZMAT Tech.  I asked if the student was a Tech and he replied “yes”.  This particular student had never worn breathing apparatus.  Maybe over the years things have changed that much, but I always thought you needed to wear breathing apparatus to train to the HAZMAT Tech level.  Don’t put yourself or your people in an over committed environment.  When and if other resources arrive, then and only then might you consider further commitment?  Stay next to a door or window to do your search.  Do not commit further than your resources or training allow for a reasonable amount of safety.

 

CR: “maintains close accountability for all personnel at the fire scene”. This would suggest that you didn’t know where your FIVE people were, when it is painfully clear that you knew exactly where they were and what they were doing. Was this meant to address communications issues? Who had radios that day?

 

CW: I did in fact know that they were performing rescue operations on the interior of the structure.  When you have this few personnel on the scene, you can track everyone without too many problems.  As the incident grows, you must then utilize a formal accountability system to track all the operations that are simultaneously occurring.  Having a good accountability of your personnel will help to stabilize a scene, reduce freelancing and provide a safer more proficient operation.  Having an established accountability program will reduce the impact of Murphy’s Law.

 

CR: NIOSH addressed communications. Were there difficulties with radio transmissions, radio equipment, and no back-up channels? What caused your radios to be a focus for their review?

 

CW: At the time of this fire, only the officers had portable radios.  Today, all personnel carry radios.  There was very little communications occurring at the scene that morning.  In fact, it would be reasonable to say little or none, except for initial communications with dispatch.  I think NIOSH focused on this mainly because communications seems to be a common denominator in LODD’s.  It would seem to me that whenever a team is focused on search for a known victim, the radio’s become very quiet.  We have worked on our communications quite a lot.  We continue to have a long way to go.  With radio communications there is always room for improvement.  I think for me the lesson in emergency scene communications was not what was communicated but more of what was not communicated.

 

CR: RIT is a biggie. A lot of discussion over the years. At what point in this incident did you actually have enough manpower to assign RIT? And honestly? Knowing Iowa OSHA like I do, I would have bet on a citation for violating two in/two out. Was RIT part of the equation early into this incident?

 

CW: No, RIT really wasn’t a consideration.  Actually the 2 in 2 out rule is negated in Iowa if a known rescue is in progress.  2 in 2 out never played a role in any of the investigation.  My only observation towards 2 in 2 out is; Why is it OK in OSHA’s eyes to perform a rescue with only one person if you know someone is trapped than it is if you are assuming someone may be trapped?  I thought OSHA was about employee safety.  If that is the case, even they make an exception to the rules (SOP’s).

 

CR: The last NIOSH recommendation addresses PASS devices. Your firefighters each wore two; one integrated into the SCBA and the other attached to their coats. Yet, no one could recall hearing any audible alarms from any of the stricken firefighters. Could it be speculated that a thermal event inside the structure rendered the devices inoperable?

 

CW: The third party testing revealed that, due to the extreme thermal event, the electronics failed in all the audible devices.  One more lesson; if it is man made, it can and most probably will fail at the worst time. 

 

CR: Could you talk about relationships and their importance when dealing with a traumatic event?

 

CW: Considering I’ve been fortunate to have not had prior experience with a LODD, I would say we had to learn how to deal with the trauma.  Fortunately, the firefighters respected each other through the entire ordeal.  There were so many different emotions being experienced, you just had to wonder how the department would make it.   I guess the Good Lord stayed with us through to the end.  Although I’m sure we remain far from the end.  Each person experiences grief in a different way and at different times.  Knowing that you are going to have all these different emotions occurring, you have to stay on top of the game.  We were able to come through this with little animosity and hurt feelings.  It’s all about RESPECT.

 

CR: The last time you and I spoke, you told me about the McNally boys and I saw that gleam in your eye and that smile stretch across your face. Tell our readers about them.

 

CW: All three of our men had kids at home.  Some were rather young and would need to analyze all of this at a later age.  Some were older and could, for as well as can be expected, experience the pain and suffering of the loss of their father immediately.  I really could not relate to them very well as I had never experienced a loss of this type.  All I could do is sit back and pray that the children could rationalize the loss and continue to move forward.  Fortunately, to the best of my knowledge, all has gone well.  As for the McNally boys; they are doing well.  Pat, the oldest son of Dave, was in college working towards a degree in law enforcement.  He wised up, changed his mind and moved towards an education in fire science.  Pat decided he wanted to be a firefighter.  Of course, I was pleased with his decision.  Any father would be excited about his son or daughter following in his footsteps.  The difference is, Pat had experienced the worst of times.  Then Pat came to my office and said he wanted to be a firefighter in Keokuk.  Well, you can imagine the mixed emotions I had.  We talked quite extensively regarding the reasons he wanted to be a firefighter.  Pat had the right answers, the right attitude.  Pat has been with the department for over a year now, and is doing very well.  I just see so much of his father in him, sometimes he’ll do something or the look on his face will remind me of Dave, and I have to walk away.  Usually with tears moving down my cheeks.  Pat’s desire to be a firefighter in Keokuk also in some way makes me feel very good inside.  Dave’s youngest son has also expressed an interest in the fire service, and he too would like to be a firefighter in Keokuk.  I only hope I have the opportunity to make that a reality for him also. 

 

CR: That is a fitting ending to this interview, but your story of that day will continue, won’t it? You have such a passion for this that I can tell that you never want anyone else, be it firefighter, family or friend to have to experience it. Your final thoughts, please, Mark.

 

CW: As it is written in Job, “Should we accept the good that is given and not accept the bad?”  Life sometimes throws a curve and we take it on the chin.  I knew even as a firefighter I had a responsibility to others.  My partner was relying on me for his safety.  Then as I was promoted, others were relying on me as well.  Eventually the department became my responsibility, and things went bad.  I had always thought that I operated safely. 

 

Sometimes your eyes get opened unexpectedly.  You don’t have to experience what Keokuk experienced.  Why is it, we all know if we are punched in the nose, it is going to hurt like hell?  Yet some of us still have to pick a fight to believe it. Let Keokuk be your punch in the nose.  Let our incident be your incident.  Study it.  Pick it apart.  Plug it into your operating procedures.  Not just what is written, but how you actually operate on the scene.  For most, you will probably find there are some major discrepancies in your written procedures and your everyday, take it for granted, on scene operations.  You have the ability to “Make The Changes”.  Do you have the desire?  If not let someone else lead.  From the bottom to the top, you must be willing to step forward.  Not stand back, not stand still.  This is not a social club.  If you think it is, ask your family if the social pleasure is worth the risk?  If you are not willing to train, then get out.  Fishing is much more relaxing, but learn to swim first. 

 

Many people have touched my life and supported my department and me through this tragedy.  I can only say “Thank You” to all of them.  To the Firefighters of Keokuk, my hat is off to them.  They exemplify the definition of firefighter.  They have supported me through this, when often lines are drawn in the sand. 

 

As long as my mind, body and soul can summon the strength, I will continue to carry the message of firefighter safety.  Listen to my pain and understand how important it is for “Everyone to go Home”.  Keep that thought in the forefront of all you do.  Do not buckle to the pressures of peers or politicians.  If you can do this, you may just find yourself sleeping better at night.  Stay Safe.

 

First published 10/05/04

 

An Interview With Chief Mark Wessel of Keokuk, IA FD is the intellectual property of Art Goodrich a.k.a. xchief22 and is protected by copyright. It cannot be re-printed in any form without expressed permission of the author.

Posted by chiefreason on January 12, 2009 • Filed under: Interviews • Tagged: , , , , , , , , , ,

Stop Calling Firefighters Heroes?

No comments

First Published 11/25/03

An Interview with Douglas Gantenbein

Author of the article and a book entitled A Season of Fire

 

On Friday, October 31, 2003, Doug Gantenbein’s article Stop Calling Firefighters Heroes appeared in the “Smoke and Mirrors” section of Slate.com.

On Saturday, November 1, 2003, the article found its way to the Firehouse.com Forums, where discussion came very quickly.

I contacted Doug via email and told him of the Pandora’s box that he had opened, gave him my opinion of the piece and told him to be prepared for the fallout. I even suggested to him that he go to the website to see for himself. We continued to exchange emails and he told me at its peak, he was receiving 200 – 300 emails a day from mostly firefighters-angry firefighters!

In the end, he sent me his book A Season of Fire, which I read and I must say that I found the book very interesting. It was a very quick read at 283 pages. It kept my attention, as my wild land firefighting knowledge is very limited. I learned quite a bit about wild land tactics and about the fragile eco-system that exists between fire and forest.

After reading the book, I suggested to Doug that I would like to interview him for our website and he agreed.

I want to point out that this is an interview and not a debate. I purposely allowed him to have the last word on some points, so that you, the IACOJ members, might discuss these points and if felt so inclined, you could email him with your thoughts.

I would also like to point out that this is his first interview since publishing both the article and his book; an “exclusive” if you will.

AND it is also the first interview to appear on our website!

I hope you enjoy it and as always, I welcome your comments.

 

VR: Doug. First of all, thank you very much for agreeing to this interview. Could you give us some of your background?

 

DG: Journalism – for 25 years. I’m the Seattle correspondent for The Economist, and also contribute to magazines such as Scientific American, Outside and Travel & Leisure. I cover a pretty wide range of stuff – environmental issues, politics, technology, aviation and more.

 

VR: Before we get to your book A Season of Fire, I have to ask you about “the article”; Smoke and Mirrors: Stop Calling Firefighters ‘Heroes’ that was posted at Slate.com.

What was the defining moment for you that spurred you to write this piece?

 

DG: Hmmm. Hard to say. The themes I talked about in Slate are notions I’d been kicking around off and on for several years. I’d actually written something that was similar for The Economist, back in 1997 or so (pre-Internet days, so didn’t have near the “traction” of the Slate piece). The immediate impetus for the Slate article was twofold: Arnold Schwarzenegger’s “hero” remarks about the California firefighters (and yes, those folks worked extremely hard!) and an article in the Washington Post, also about the California firefighters, which talked about the firefighters elbowing each other out of the way to get to the next hot spot. I read that, rolled my eyes, and the rest is, well, history.

 

VR: Why did you choose the firefighting profession as an example of where the label “hero” is over-used? Why not, oh say, war veterans instead?

 

DG: Very fair question. Of course, lots of words get over-used in our society. I think the “hero” status accorded Jessica Lynch, for instance, is shameful – particularly when so many of our troops really did act heroically (and still are doing so). The hoo-hah over the “greatest generation,” the WWII vets, also has gone over the top in recent years. As for the Slate piece, news events sort of drove the topic; I really wasn’t thinking in terms of a shopping list of groups to criticize, with firefighters first in line that particular day. Plus, I honestly think one thing separates combat from firefighting: Very few soldiers care to see combat after their first taste of it. Firefighters, while of course experiencing fear and seeing some awful things, genuinely enjoy what they do. So I think the term “hero” is best used when somebody acts that way – and really doesn’t want to. Firefighters, as I thought I noted in the Slate piece, can meet that test fairly readily.

 

VR: We train for many disasters, including fire. Though we know that there may be human tragedy as a result, we don’t “train” for it, but we try to minimize the effects of it with de-briefing and other support systems. Would you believe me if I said that we don’t care to see human tragedy after our first taste of it?

 

DG: Sure, I’d believe that. I did mountain rescue work for many years and helped bag plenty of dead bodies. It ain’t fun. I would never even suggest that firefighters enjoyed finding badly injured people – or worse – on a call. And I understand the gratification that can come from genuinely helping people.

 

VR: The response to your comments came very swiftly. Did you expect such an outpouring?

 

DG: Ironically, I thought that the article’s appearance on Slate on a Friday afternoon would pretty much doom it to sub-standard exposure. Boy, was I wrong about that! Beyond that, I fully expected a sharp reaction. But I was astonished by the scope and velocity of it.

 

VR: Can you share some of the more “thoughtful” responses that you received?

 

DG: I received many. Most pointed out that at their particular station they work very hard, see some dreadful things, eschew the word “hero” and may have to work a second job simply to make ends meet. Several folks first contacted me with rather harsh language, but after a few exchanges our “reptilian brain stem” reactions lapsed, and we had interesting conversations.

 

VR: You understand that firefighters have very tightly-wound emotions and sometimes must use unconventional vocabulary to articulate their feelings?

 

DG: I was indeed struck by the depth of emotional attachment many firefighters have to their jobs. I’m not sure this always is a healthy thing. Firefighting, of course, is a closed culture – only other firefighters really understand the work, just like only other cops or soldiers can understand those occupations. However, I think the police and military have tried to come to grips with the darker sides of that sort of life. I’m not sure firefighters have. I almost think that firefighters should be required to take a sabbatical every five years, go do something else, see how other people live and work. Firefighters need to understand that lots of folks work hard, risk injury on the job, don’t get paid enough. I’m not sure they all do.

 

VR: After you wrote the article, did it occur to you that you might have revealed a side of the firefighters that might have people questioning their motives for their job? I’ll give you an example: Everyone was in a complete lather to get to the next hot spot. ‘It’s almost a slugfest in there’, one told Waxman. This urge to reach the fire is not entirely altruistic. It sure beats washing that damned fire truck again, for one thing. Plus a big fire is thrilling, plain and simple.

 

DG: You mean, that fighting a fire can be fun?? Well, I suppose that’s a dark secret. But, I’ve been around big fires and understand completely the allure. Fire is inherently fascinating-its combination of terror, destruction and beauty; its ephemeral nature; its refusal to allow us a clear view of it, with the flames waving and flickering. So, I suppose I wanted to make that point—that fire can be deadly, but in many cases it’s very hard to find anything quite so thrilling to be around.

 

VR: I’ll give fascinating and thrilling to a point. But fun? There are aspects of it that are, but as an occupation or as the reason for signing up, “fun” is at the bottom of the list.

 

DG: Well, maybe that was the wrong word. Exciting, certainly. Tell me, have you ever felt quite so alive as when you were in or around a big fire, planning your next move, keeping an eye on the fire and your partner, wondering what would happen next? Probably not.

 

VR: Do you honestly believe that all firefighters do it for the adrenaline rush?

 

DG: No, no more than I write for the thrill of a byline. Adrenaline only lasts so long, anyway. But I certainly believe it’s a factor, especially when people consider firefighting as a career. People don’t join up to lead school tours and run fire inspections, that’s for sure.

 

VR: Why a strong communicative term, such as “propaganda” to describe a firefighter’s funeral and in the same paragraph used adjectives such as “tasteless, honor, absurd and quasi-military”?

 

DG: I used the word propaganda very deliberately. I’m not sure firefighters understand the kind of impression they create when they stage a funeral and 5,000 firefighters show up. Were it a military funeral, people would fear a coup from such a show of force. I understand that the intent is to honor their dead, which I think is altogether fitting and proper. However, sometimes I think these events almost do the opposite. Certainly, in the specific case I cited, the ceremony for the four dead wild land firefighters – three of whom were teens making a few bucks for college – almost seemed to mock the dead. I thought it was tasteless and absurd.

 

VR: You got to see first hand the efforts of wild land firefighting during the summer of 2001 and yet, you called firefighting a “cushy job”. Why?

 

DG: Well, the Slate piece generalized, so in hindsight it was a bit fuzzy differentiating between wild land and urban work. The wild land folks work really, truly hard, 16-18 hours a day, 14 days straight, with two days off, then they start the cycle over again. Very few urban firefighters work a schedule close to that. I will concede, however, that during a big urban fire, urban firefighters expend a huge amount of energy very quickly. The wild land folks are able to pace themselves. Fighting a structure fire is a sprint; a forest fire is a marathon.

 

VR: You mentioned in our conversations that you regretted not mentioning the volunteer firefighters in your article. Would you like to comment now?

 

DG: Oh, just that it was a severe oversight on my part to not have mentioned volunteers in some way. But maybe that was a good thing. I live near a volunteer department that is the most comically dysfunctional outfit you can imagine. They spend three-fourths of their time bickering.

 

VR: You mentioned that firefighting isn’t that dangerous and even went so far as to say that pizza delivery drivers are in more danger, “statistically speaking”. So, you were saying that a pizza delivery guy is risking his life every day to deliver pizzas?

 

DG: Nah, I was just making a rhetorical point that there are lots of dangerous jobs in the U.S. As for pizza delivery people, I don’t think they ponder the mortal implications of their job. Fishers, loggers and the like? They do – they KNOW what they do is dangerous; they all have friends who have died in the work.

I did make it clear that plenty of firefighters die each year – on average, about 100. However, even that figure does indeed put the work a bit down the “most dangerous” list. Some firefighters correctly pointed out that is a GOOD thing.

 

VR: And to finish up on the article, you refer to firefighters as “just another special interest group”. In fairness to firefighters, aren’t there lobbyists for the “unheralded heroes” as well? The last time that I looked; doctors, teachers and miners all have very strong lobbyists working around the clock in Washington, DC for their “special interests”.

 

DG: Of course. Firefighters, however, are uniformly viewed by the public as working selflessly and in the public interest. While that often is the case, sometimes it is not. Firefighters have their own turf, and will fight to protect it. Fair enough, but people need to know that will happen, and that when it does, the public good might take a back seat. I think the reaction to my Slate piece proved that point – some firefighters would rather beat the crap out of someone than hear any criticism.

 

VR: Firefighters get upset when someone questions their heart. Sometimes the public forgets that firefighters pay taxes, pay bills, raise a family and works towards retirement. Bureaucracy gets in the way of that sometimes. Comments?

 

DG: I understand that there is firefighter “leadership,” and firefighter rank-and-file, and that they may not be the same thing. I think people appreciate the fact that firefighters do all the things you say. But, for good or ill, it’s also tax money that finances firefighters’ salaries, vehicles and stations. So that has to be factored in.

 

VR: Doug. You have the last word before we discuss your book.

 

DG: Hey, I asked for the fuss! Of all the things I’ve done in journalism, few have stirred this sort of reaction. I stand by the piece, but I also understand that a better choice of a few words would have saved me a lot of grief. That said, there’s nothing I’ve ever written that wouldn’t benefit from a good re-write six months after it appears. Any writer will tell you the same thing.

 

VR: Let’s switch gears and talk about your book A Season of Fire. What got you interested in doing a book about the wild land fires of 2001?

 

DG: I’d written articles about fire and its growing presence in the West going back eight or 10 years, mainly for The Economist. I was doing so again in the summer of 2000, a really severe fire season. While talking to a researcher in Arizona, we got to chatting about the possible market for a book that tried to tell a good story AND explained the ecological issues of fire. That was when it really started to crystallize. 

 

VR: You did an excellent job of weaving Mann Gulch, Storm King and lessons learned from them into your book. But were you saying that we haven’t learned?

 

DG: Apparently not. As one long-time fire manager said to me a few months ago: “We haven’t learned a single new thing about how to kill a firefighter in 50 years. We also haven’t learned what to do about it.” It seems that every 5, 10 or 15 years there’s some terrible tragedy with a big cluster of dead firefighters, and it turns out the same mistakes are being made: Poor communication, poor decision-making, underestimation of the fire and so on.

 

VR: I sensed almost a bitterness in your description of the Thirtymile Fire and the deaths of four firefighters-three who were very young. You were critical of the tactics employed. Please expand on that.

 

DG: It was simply a complete waste of human life, so in that sense I was bitter about it. Just about every safety guideline developed over the years to try to prevent this sort of thing was violated. Plus the leadership people on the scene failed to show a lick of common sense. There were a dozen times during the day when somebody should have said, “Enough, let’s get out of here.” But there was this constant sense that just a little more work would lasso the fire, and nobody bothered to look at the big picture. When they did, it was too late.

 

VR: It was in your discussion of the Thirtymile Fire that I found your disdain for the use of the term “hero”. It was at the funeral of Tom Craven, Jessica Johnson, Karen FitzPatrick and Devin Weaver. After reading it, I at least have a better understanding of why you said what you said. But I am reminded of a saying that says, “Funerals are for the living”. Your thoughts, please.

 

DG: Sure, I understand that funerals are for the living. I tried to factor that in to how I viewed the ceremony for the four firefighters (all of whom had, by that time, been buried). But in this case, I really didn’t see how the living were served, either. Certainly not the families. The parade, the entry to the arena, the ceremony – it lasted four or five hours. I think a 45-minute service and the words of a few of the speakers (the best of whom, I will say, was a firefighter) would have honored the dead and salved the hurt of the living. Remember, Lincoln spoke at Gettysburg for all of, what, three minutes?

 

VR: If I understand the Storm King Fire, weather information of an impending cold front that would increase wind velocity was ignored, costing fourteen firefighters their lives. Could you discuss communications?

 

DG: Poor communications were at work on two levels that summer day in 1994. At the upper levels, fire managers weren’t paying attention to weather forecasts and their implications. On the ground, the firefighters weren’t doing a good job of talking to one another and keeping track of one another’s movements. Nor were they keeping an eye on terrain, as many of them were working ABOVE the fire, the wild land equivalent of working in a building with a burning basement. Of course, John MacLean’s book “Fire on the Mountain” is the definitive account of that disaster.

 

VR: In urban firefighting, incident command/shared command is an absolute necessity and is a structured chain of command that ultimately comes back to the incident commander. How tight is the command structure in wild land firefighting?

 

DG: It’s as tight as is practical. Each fire has an incident commander, with two or three sector chiefs, then more line bosses closer to the action. But on a big forest fire, 400-500 firefighters may be strung along a perimeter dozens of miles long, with most drop-off points reached only by difficult drives over mountain roads. In some cases, crews are “spiked out” to remote camps and literally left on their own for four or five days. So it can be difficult to keep close tabs on everyone. They do their best.

 

VR: Smokejumpers. Still a vital resource for fighting forest fires or has technology caused the Forest Service to re-think their role?

 

DG: I’m not popular with smokejumpers either, you should know. I simply think they’re obsolete. When smokejumpers first were deployed, just after WWII, huge tracts of Western forests were roadless, and nearly all the trees there were seen as a huge economic asset. Today, there are tens of thousands of miles of road, enabling firefighters to drive to most fires. In the most remote areas, where smokejumpers would make sense, land managers are doing their best to let fires burn naturally. So I don’t think they have a real role today.

That said, the work is glamorous as hell. If I ever took up firefighting as a career, I’d want to be a smokejumper.

 

VR: You mentioned the role of private contractors in the firefighting effort. Can you elaborate on a typical budget and whether privatizing services are cost effective?

 

DG: A big fire – 50,000 acres or more – may run a tab of $1 million a day once the effort to halt it really gets going. Of that, only a tenth or so goes to the federal firefighters who do most of the line work (in most cases, the so-called Hotshot crews). The rest goes to private contractors, who do everything from trucking in bottled water to cutting firebreaks with bulldozers to flying aerial retardant tankers. I think there is a tremendous amount of waste. But does it make sense to NOT use private contractors? I don’t have a good answer for that. All I can say is that the cost-per-acre to fight a fire keeps going up even as we privatize the effort more and more.

 

VR: Logging has been essentially forbidden for the past several years in the national forests. Has this led to over growth and more destructive and costly fires?

 

DG: The lack of logging hasn’t made a bit of difference, in my view. The culprits have been drought and our own too-good firefighting efforts. Fire is a natural process that in many forests helps reduce the buildup of brush and young trees. In its absence, fires burn bigger and hotter when they get rolling.

I do see comparisons between federal forests and private ones, and sure, the private ones burn less. They have fewer trees in the first place, and many more big “firebreaks” formed by clear-cuts. But a tree farm is not a natural forest.

 

VR: You sounded as if you had little sympathy for those building houses in and around such a heavy fuel load for fire. Please talk about that.

 

DG: Imagine responding to a city fire in which the home’s occupant was smoking in bed, the gas stove was on, but not lighted, and oily rags lay piled in the corner. You’d probably think they had it coming. Similarly, many people build cabins in the woods with trees crowding the siding, overgrown brush right up to the foundation, and a ton of dry kindling on the roof (cedar shakes). To top it off, maybe access is via a one-lane gravel road with poor turnaround access. Yet these folks want the Forest Service to save their home when a fire breaks out. No, I am not sympathetic.

 

VR: “Had it coming”? We try not to judge the idiots. But Rule #1 for many years in the Forest Service was to save the houses at any cost. It also makes for good TV. Could this also be the reason for the cost-per-acre more than doubling in the past twenty years?

 

DG: Policy changes dating back to the early 1990s supposedly have put “protecting property” (i.e., homes) on par with protecting resources – the trees themselves. That isn’t always the case; I saw plenty of instances where a fire that threatened homes led to a frenzy of suppression efforts. Still, overall I don’t think we can blame homes in the woods for growing costs.  To some extent, I think people have seen that money can be made with fires. They come up with some way to offer a service, and the firefighting agencies buy it. In an odd way, the fire economy has replaced the timber economy that used to dominate much of the West.

 

VR: Do you favor thinning forests by the natural effects of a forest fire or by mechanical means? Or do you have other thoughts?

 

DG: I think we need to use a mix. Mechanical thinning is effective and appropriate in some cases. So too is “prescribed” fire – deliberately set fires designed to reduce the risk of severe fires. And sometimes we just need to let nature do its thing.

 

VR: It appeared to me that some in the U.S. Forest Service disagreed or at the very least were at odds with national forest policy. Is that an accurate assumption?

 

DG: The Forest Service is a big organization, with thousands of people involved directly or indirectly with fire. So opinions on how best to handle fire can vary widely. Within the agency, I think it’s fair to say that lots of people have lobbied, sometimes with success, for a different way of doing things. But the Forest Service also is a very conservative, tradition-bound outfit, and its chief aim is ensuring federal dollars come its way. So it has a stake in “big iron” firefighting, and change can be slow to come.

 

VR: Is it safe to say that you believe that too much money is at stake and the lobbyists too strong to change where the money and effort should go?

 

DG: I don’t know about money or lobbyists. In my experience, the winter months see lots of very sane talk about how to handle wildfire. Then a big one breaks out in August, and all good sense goes out the window. It’s the nature of the beasts, both the fires themselves and the organizations charged with dealing with them. When the smoke blows, the money flows.

 

VR: Is it because local control/local interest is at odds with a national forest service policy or vice versa?

 

DG: It’s a mix of things. A big fire generates its own political and media firestorm, which sometimes forces land managers to do things they might not otherwise do. From a policy standpoint, one problem is that the Forest Service has created the impression that we can “do something” about a big fire – i.e., put it out. The fact is, a big fire will do its own thing, no matter how many resources are thrown at it. But people have this expectation that if they’re threatened, someone will save their homes. That isn’t always possible, so frictions emerge. Also, we still see fires as bad things, when in reality they aren’t. Until that changes we won’t be able to really come to grips with wild land fire in a realistic way.

 

VR: Based on current Forest Service policies, have we seen our worst forest fires or are the worst yet to come?

 

DG: Well, if you look at the trends, you’d say the worst is yet to come. And I’m inclined to agree, particularly if climate change really kicks in. On the other hand, there’s the very real possibility that fires take out so much of the West, future fires have a tough time getting any traction.

 

VR: Are you still in touch with people (Don Latham, Kevin Ryan, Bob Tobin, Neal Hitchcock, Jack Kirkendall) interviewed and quoted for your book?

 

DG: Sure, some of them. The book has been out for only two months or so, and I’m still trying to take care of my list of folks who helped and who get one.

 

VR: If you had the authority over the U.S. Forest Service, what would you change, keep the same and what would it cost?

 

DG: Wow, tough question. How’s this: I’d scrap the smokejumpers, can Smokey the Bear, put fire managers on a per-day budget and throw lots of resources into prescribed fires and efforts to make communities fire-safe. I’d also put more money into efforts to use computer models and terrain mapping to forecast where severe fires are apt to break out.

 

VR: Are you planning any more books on fire service topics?

 

DG: Nope. Two current book projects, in proposal stage, involve aviation and health care.

 

VR: I will thank you for your thoughts and give you the last word.

 

DG: I appreciate the chance to talk to your readers. I hope they find my remarks interesting. I’d be more than happy to send anyone a signed copy of the book – it can be ordered at the book’s web site, www.aseasonoffire.com.

 

Beyond that, all I have to say is: Stay safe!

Posted by chiefreason on January 12, 2009 • Filed under: Interviews • Tagged: , , , , ,